A Lesbian’s Heart Is an Ocean of Secrets: A Conversation with Kitty Rauth

Power (Buried Series III), 2024. Original lighting fixture found in Grey Towers Castle basement, wiring, ground glass.
15”x15”x36”

By Matt Morris

I’m an angel…seeking my people that have never been made, going down face foremost, drinking the waters, up to my heart, the terrible waters! What do you know of me?
–Djuna Barnes, Nightwood.

Sail away, sail away, sail away.
–Enya, Orinoco Flow.


Half a decade ago, Kitty Rauth (they/she) set sail from the comforts of their established art home in Philadelphia and washed ashore in Chicago, where they’ve unleashed a tempest of radical generosity, spirited discourse, and sensitively executed material inquiries into excess and loss at scales simultaneously personal and political. Upon completion of their MFA in Sculpture at the School of the Art Institute of Chicago, they chartered their next adventure as an educator at the same institution, along with a heady mix of ambitious and frequent exhibitions of their own work, community organizing with the venerable alternative space Comfort Station in Chicago’s Logan Square, and facilitating various food and meal based happenings with their ongoing project Round Table as well as collaborations with foodie scenesters like TXA TXA CLUB.

Kitty is driven by an upbeat ‘sink or swim’ mentality across their endeavors, demonstrating an inclusive, supportive ethos that ‘rising tides lift all boats.’ They dream up futures with greater livability and pleasure for more than the status quo while integrating a circumspect problematizing of multiple pasts and histories. Last summer, when we exhibited together at LVL3 with Jacquelin Zazueta, I saw a shift in the core vocabulary of their approaches to objecthood, and the year and a half that followed has witnessed a flood of hybrid citations, technical curiosities, and well-researched expansions on discourses that their practice has centered.

Rauth’s most recent outing is Pleasure Cruise, a two-person exhibition with Ále Campos that was on display in September and October 2025 at Roots & Culture Contemporary Art Centre. Together, they composed artifacts of queer life glistening from shadows and new shores. Campos offered annotations at the intersections of the sexual and social with installations of looped videos of their drag persona, Celeste, played variously from out of black plastic-curtained reconstruction of a back room gloryhole and yellow-washed urinal. Rauth complimented these vestiges with sensitive records of overwhelm, treading the waters of ecology and embodiment mapped across histories, fictions, and fantasy. Both artists have achieved lusty, heroic feats with the romantic inflections of devilish details and nuanced subtleties in a cultural moment when queerness is being abbreviated, flattened, and distorted at numerous political thresholds. I was honored to carry on some continuous conversations with Rauth about the work they prepared for Pleasure Cruise, as well as the deeper shifts in flow that have been giving shape to their studio research. What follows is compiled and condensed from those chats.


Kitty Rauth. Put Away, 2024. dimensions variable. found table, hinges, linen tablecloth, table setting for 5, ribbon.
photo credit: Lily Szymanski.

Matt Morris: While your practice spreads across myriad media and formats, ‘the object’ and its constitutive material states are often at the crux of your investigations: how are those approaches to matter, sculpture, thing-in-space useful for your articulation and analysis of desire and its capacities?

I think of your work often holding a residue of prior shifts in states of matter—melted wax candles, caramelized sugars, cast gelatins, shattered dinnerware, to note a few examples. What are the curiosities and conditions that preoccupy you at these thresholds of transformation?

In the case of your most recent works, several converging inquiries arrive at fluidity as crucial: do you interact with fluidity as a form? A mode?


Kitty Rauth: I want to tackle these first two questions together, because the concerns here are quite interwoven.

We live in the world, in uncertain times and fluctuating space, amongst real objects with real significance and human attachments. I’m concerned with objects’ and materials’ histories, and how they perform in the world. Performance in their usage, lack of usage, and inevitable state shift. I want my work to be a reminder that all things shift and change. Functionality and intention often fails, but through failure, we find change. It feels to me like a guidance, an adage, a prayer, much like Octavia Butler’s notion in Parable of the Sower that “God is change.”

All of this had recently led me to toy with the concept of fluidity. The power of undulating and/or crashing waves of a body of water, the endless overflow of a fountain, the tiniest tides in a glass of water. Truthfully, though, this water feels quite heavy. It both holds me afloat and weighs me down as I’m facing all that it holds.

Kitty Rauth. Fan Fiction, 2025. vinyl wall text. 60” x 60.”
Photo credit: Jonas Mueller-Alheim

MM: As I contemplated these liminal states, how they linger in your work, and especially interacting with your white-on-white wall vinyl piece Fan Fiction, I associated strongly to a passage of Monique Wittig’s The Lesbian Body that, if you and Femme Art Review will humor me, I’ll quote in snippets here, to see how you feel about it alongside your work:

No sunset m/y living one will illuminate the board where the name of your ship will be inscribed. I can tear from m/y forehead the violet bandeau that signals m/y liberty so dearly bought as for you all m/y dearest ones I ask you if you love m/e to let mm/e die one night far away in the sea…The flow becomes continuous, the foamy juice whitened in its eddies rises to the shoulders, the head emerging hair spread out, cheeks pale. Now the fingers tap continuously on the membranes. An agitation disturbs the flow of transparent juice fluid water. Abundant salty tears are shed into the flow, I drown, the water re-enters by m/y eye juice tears, in it I see blacks golds lights crystals scales…the thrust of our limbs floating on a great body of bluish lactic liquid, the water rises iodized translucent, it reaches the topmost branches of the last visible trees, it beats warmly against the legs of the swimming women, submerged up to m/y facial orifices I see that the liquid mass continues to increase with suspended mucus pearly elastic filaments, the golds the reds now have the same colour and consistence as the clouds, the rising wave debouches in the sky, farewell black continent of misery and suffering farewell ancient cities we are embarking for the shining radiant isles….
–Monique Wittig, The Lesbian Body.

KR: Thank you, Matt. This feels like such a gift. This passage feels like it cracks open something that has been brewing in me with this show. The work meditates on the complications of pleasure, of what it provides, of what it distracts from, and of how it can implode on us. My personal relationship to pleasure lives in a very lesbian space— intimate, romantic, demanding, nuanced, occasionally all-encompassing, occasionally skittish. In what feels like a painful opposition to queer celebrations of pleasure, I am sometimes terrified of the way it can and has drowned us, and Wittig seems to have captured this complication so beautifully and poetically. I will be sitting on this for some time.

MM: There are a number of related critical facets in this fluidity that I want to tick off: annotate however you might associate and expand on them.

Wet.

KR: In the same breath, sensuous and miserable. Dripping, cold.


MM: Melt.

KR: Slow decay, disappearance, but also how you feel in love.

MM: Drown.

KR: Overwhelmed, all-encompassing, endless.


“I’ll never let go, Jack.”

MM: Overflow.

KR: Abundance, excess, indulgence.

Also,

A scene from Saltburn (2023) in which the Catton family is seated for a formal lunch in the wake of their son Felix’s unexpected death the night before. The curtains are drawn, bathing the dining room in a crimson light, and you watch as Felix’s sister Venetia despondently pours herself a glass of red wine, zoning out while the wine glass overflows onto the white tablecloth.

                        MM: Saltburn and Emerald Fennell’s films generally are interesting corollaries here, because they underscore the widening gap between the ways mainstream consciousness perceives sex as unmanageably perverse, bodily realities like menstruation as savage and taboo, and expressions of grief like the scene you’re mentioning as not only confounding but unmentionable, ineffable even. We enjoy the privileges of a fairly robust queer community in Chicago as a context for our goings on, but I wonder—given the cultural climate of our times—what it feels like to show work like you and Ále have done this fall? How do you perceive being perceived while demonstrating desire, queering pop culture, experimenting with legibility and visibilities as you have?

KR: Desire and our perception of sex, and how we use, interpret, or weaponize pop culture, have always been temperature checks for the political and cultural climate. You are right, we are very lucky to live and work in a community where the sexuality and queerness of the work in this show, to my knowledge, hasn’t sounded any alarm bells (not to say it wouldn’t in other iterations or with larger audiences or farther reaches, as we’ve seen in the recent censorship of Sally Mann’s work).

In this realm, my work allows some flexibility in the perceiving—yes, it’s work that engages pleasure, queer interpretations of beloved pop culture, nods to climate change, etc., but as you mention, I am playing with legibility in a way that demands attention. And I have found throughout the run of this show that, honestly, not that many people are paying attention! Those who are “in” see the work deeply and share their own experiences, anecdotes, and concerns. Those who aren’t push me back towards the former group, so that we can weather it all together.

MM: For as long as I’ve known you and your work, I’ve consistently felt an intense reckoning with loss, mortality, and death as coextensive to particularly queer modes of pleasure, care, and embodiment as you describe them, in material and in form. Can you narrate how you understand those mordant dimensions, how and why they came into your approaches to making?


KR: The first time death entered my making was through its innate connection to fatness and disability. Going into grad school, I was exploring the roots of fatphobia and found myself deeply involved in Terror Management Theory, the idea that we are always, consciously or subconsciously, trying to escape death through rules, structure, and legacy. But I grew up in a household where death was an accepted part of our story, and with a grandmother who was a death doula. For my whole adult life, I’ve been in community with legions of queer people whose shared history is so entangled with death that we have had to develop a very different and sometimes explosive relationship to pleasure and existence. The promise of death makes us choose differently, and I think my work is often living in the space of that promise.

Kitty Rauth. Belly of the Beast, a World to Unearth, 2024. Manufactured onlay, spray paint, latex paint
24”x36.”

MM: Your newest work may be the most understated I’ve seen you produce (compared to more baroque presentations in Chicago and Philadelphia) while also referring to really intense modes of affect. Were you aware of the development of this relative economy of gesture as a means of expressing some of the biggest feelings in the work to date?


KR: I have used these big flourishing motifs in my past work to point toward excess, but also because I really love those over-the-top architectural gestures that hold history and tell the complicated stories of wealth, class, abundance, et al.

Over the last year or two, I have felt a schism in myself. I don’t necessarily feel like I need “all that”- I have significantly pared down my life, my style, my social circle, and have in turn had the “Who even am I anymore?” existential bug out. But in all of these spaces, including my studio practice, it has allowed me to get to the root of the matter and focus on the one or two gestures that feel reflective of some internal reckonings. To be clear though, none of it was ever a conscious choice, but rather I think a reflection of what I’ve been developing in my 30s.

Kitty Rauth. As the water rises, 2025. Table, linen damask tablecloth, linen napkin, handblown champagne flute, fountain pump, champagne
38” x 16” x 16.” Photo credit: Jonas Mueller-Alheim

MM: With glassware of various kinds, both holding and demonstrating breach/fragmentation, containment and interiority, but also escape and leakage are operative in these works. The fountain component of As the water rises in particular calls attention to both the holding as well as the breach and overflow. Can you speak about vessels and holding, what is inside/contained?

KR: The vessels in this body of work are both drinking glasses, meant to hold liquid for consumption. As the water rises contains a champagne glass on a small, dressed table. The glass continuously overflows, pointing towards indulgence or decadence; an endless over-pouring, it is uncontrolled and unceasing. As if almost through magic or a ghostly force, it is endlessly filled. Through quieter means, the water glass in Unsinkable commands space simply through its contents. Filled with glacier water, there is ownership and a cavalier one at that. It beckons a curious, forbidden sip.

Kitty Rauth. WSL1yd. 4x scale historical recreation of White Star Line flag in linen, canvas, rope, pulley, cleat
128” x 53”, dimensions vary &
Kitty Rauth. Maiden Voyage, 2025
single-channel video 2min 30 sec loop. Cinematography and editing by Ruby Que
Photo credit: Jonas Mueller-Alheim.

MM: In the video Maiden Voyage, 2025, you ‘christen’ your own body by breaking bottles against it as is conventional for maiden voyages of sea vessels—your form becomes ship, form, and an additional vessel within this body of work, but one suggestively disoriented from biological determinisms and carrying offspring, instead embarking toward what? Doom and shipwreck? Cruising? Longing?


KR: There is an amount of not knowing involved in the nautical tradition of breaking a champagne bottle on the hull of a ship on its maiden voyage. Not knowing what’s to come, not knowing how it will go. If a ship is a body, a vessel, it holds memory and that memory takes time to accrue and embed itself. The captain may have expectations, but the vessel can’t yet understand.

For me, the gesture of breaking bottle after bottle holds a simultaneous hope and hopelessness. A prayer, almost, that things will be alright, as torturous as it feels. There is no roadmap for where we’re supposed to go from here, for how to reorient ourselves to whatever new horror is next. We’re just sailing forth towards the unknown.

                        MM: A tenet of queer life, if not existence generally, is doubt, right?

Transgressive, suppressed sexualities call attention to the total lack of a map or manual for navigating becoming ourselves. You’ve spent years noticing shifts in material states and reflecting on those in your work; it sounds like you’re approaching life transitions and change in similar ways.

Kitty Rauth. Untitled (Wilted Series #4), 2023
Manipulated found glass, houseflies
12” x 6” x 5.”

KR: It’s true. I seem to be constantly thinking about queer mapping, navigation, and orientation, and a huge looming cruise ship felt like an apt object for projection.

MM: For WSL1yd you recreated one of the flags flown above the ocean liner RMS Titanic on its first and only (incomplete) voyage. In the ways I also cite from available histories in my work, I’m very influenced by the radical interventions being made by folks like the political scientist and historical interpreter Cheyney McKnight, who revisit recorded histories and artifact as a starting place for counter-narratives that contest monolithic (and patriarchal, white supremacist, heterosexist) power structures around how we orient to past and future. In your own interpretations of the flag piece, how did fantasy and fabulation, alterity and re-interpretation come into play?


KR: This piece started as a joke with myself to create a huge red flag, a colloquial kind of warning flown on the ship itself. The White Star Line’s logo, this red flag with a white star flowing in the wind, was imprinted all over the ship, and I dug into the Titanic Museum’s archives to look for real-life representations of it. I found archival photos of an intact version made in the 1940s, which I imagine would have also flown on the Titanic. I was shocked at the size, as the original flag was only 1 yard long, a fact written onto the strip of canvas attaching it to rope. A 3’ flag for an 883’ ship was just ridiculously small to me, and the owning company’s flag display seems to me like the swinging dick of the ship, no?

While we’re on the subject of counter-narratives, though, I found this incredible piece of Black American oral folk tradition that tells the story of the sole Black man aboard the Titanic, Shine. Although Jim Crow laws barred any Black staff, crew, or passengers from boarding the Titanic, the story of Shine documents a Black crew member trying to warn the captain of the sinking ship. After being ignored, Shine escapes the sinking ship and heroically swims to land to enjoy a Seagram’s Seven at the bar while his white counterparts drown. Langston Hughes reinterpreted this into a written poem called “Shine and the Titanic”, and I was really excited to read how the ripples of this historical event have been held onto over time through storytelling amongst Black communities.

MM: The way/s you’ve used WSL1yd as a kind of architectural partition and curtain feels both very queer coded—following on curtain-like interventions by Liz Collins, Felix Gonzalez-Torres, Millie Wilson, Allyson Mitchell, Macon Reed, Marc Camille Chaimowicz, Tom Burr, to name just a few—and also dis/orienting in the shifts in scale of the object and from the context of a ship to a gallery interior. Curtains, folds, flaps, partitions, and thresholds have some overt erotic legibilities: what did this work and its installation mean for you?


KR: I think this installation was directly in conversation with “rabbithole,” a video installed inside a glory hole by Ále Campos that sort of introduces the show. In both pieces, there is an ask for the audience to look past or move around the partition to participate in something that feels forbidden. The flag acts as a curtain to cover and mask the video of myself breaking cast sugar champagne bottles over my back while naked in a seemingly endless body of water. It felt important that the viewer is moving into a different space where they can more privately experience the work from. Rather than anonymity, it’s asking for closeness, for intimacy, for grace.

MM: It seems to me that you’ve widened the scope of your research to consider the ecological and industrial dimensions of culture, along with your sensitivities to history and myth-making, class struggle, and biopolitics, which are ongoing. One way I see you contending with all these intersectionalities is in complicating the (lost?) love object into hybrid, multiple positions. For instance, methodologies for queer love and care advance into a varied array of questions concerning environmental tourism, pleasure cruises, and not only the historical incident of the Titanic sinking in 1912, but also the interlocutor of James Cameron’s 1997 film adaptation of that event. What all were you managing together as this work came into focus?


KR: I’ve always been obsessed with the RMS Titanic and it’s sinking since I was young. Titanic (1997) was one of the first “adult” movies I can remember watching– I was 6 when it came out in theaters, and I remember my parents getting a babysitter so they could see it in theaters. I was upset that I wasn’t allowed to join, but as soon as it came out on VHS, I replayed the double-tape on my parents’ TV over and over again. While putting together the show, Ále and I spoke about the movie holding the shared space in our lives as a flashpoint for both of our sexual and romantic awakenings.

I watch this a few times a year at least and track other artists working within this history (Claudia Bitran, Dynasty Handbag, among others), although the Titanic often seems to be the butt of the joke. When I would talk to people about making work about the Titanic, they always laugh as if we all understood that Titanic art cannot be serious or at the very least, must engage camp as an overarching sensibility. At points, I even framed it this way myself because these reactions convinced me the only access point was through humor. But the work came out of me in the best way I know how.

MM: How do you think about the love, pleasure, and longing that figure into, say, sexual orientation, and how they exist in fandoms, particularly in adolescent and developmental phases of maturity?


KR: The joke that got me starting to think about gender-flipping in the short form fanfiction I wrote in conjunction with this show goes back to 2016, when I used the Femme-Butch Scale meme format (referenced below) to track my proposal that Young Leo is actually better viewed as a lesbian. I was 24, just off the peak of my deep investment in the One Direction fandom where I was reading sensual and emotional Larry Stylinson (Harry Styles x Louis Tomlinson) fanfictions written largely by 20-something lesbians. I don’t think this was a coincidence, especially since young twinks often read as gay women (lol) and was undoubtedly the way I found myself in the trenches of Online Directioners. And for me, this felt like a safe place to explore different emotional tones of queer romance while stuck in the very straight culture of my undergrad, without putting my heart on the line before I was ready.

Femme-Butch Scale: Young Leo (intervention on meme template by Kitty Rauth, 2017)

MM: I think fandoms have been a stalking horse for the parasocial turn, self-consciously so, with self-organized fan conventions starting in the 1930s and becoming more widespread in the 60s and 70s. How would you describe the experience of identifying with characters and properties in, say, Titanic?

KR: I think sometimes there is a moment when a celebrity almost becomes synonymous with the character they play, and that’s when I say, “Okay, fair game.” For me, this is “Young Leo” (who feels like a separate entity from Leonardo DiCaprio the Actor, if you follow) and Jack Dawson. With the Young Leo Femme-Butch Scale as a jumping off point, my rewatches became more and more about reading into a sapphic dynamic between Jack and Rose—the immediate attachment, the secret and forbidden love, the way Jack shows Rose a different potential for her life. And Jack’s hair!!! Simultaneously, in my own life, I was soaking in new political realities, learning ways of recognizing and interacting with the world that were so different from how I had grown up in polite east coast expectations. In a dramatic flourish of self-fantasy, I always insert myself as Rose DeWitt Bukater with Jack Dawson as my love interest. Since, I have tried to convince many trans mascs in my life to adopt his hairstyle, to varying degrees of success.

MM: How does fangrrrling and identifying in these ways relate to self-determination and the fashioning of a self?

KR: My favorite game with my BFF is assigning all of our friends’ personalities to different characters, like a never-ending Buzzfeed quiz. I am always projecting myself into pop culture. It’s hard not to imagine how I would act or react in a situation. But most of all, it is an opportunity to recognize and come to terms with aspects of myself to allow for future meditation. This way of engaging with media can be helpful in understanding oneself, figuring out what feels good and fits well, or what to shed to grow into a new version.

Kitty Rauth. Set Piece for an Institution, 2024
wood, drywall, screen-printed cotton, liquid starch, manufactured molding, sandbags, fabric
8’ x 9.5’ x 3.’

MM: I think you know this, but for our readers’ sake, I’ll again confess to you that I’ve never seen Titanic. Do you think it’s important to have done in order to be able to appreciate or understand the world you’ve been developing with it as a reference? If so, I propose pausing our exchange for me to screen it.

KR: The biggest understanding of the film one must have to really appreciate the fanfiction I wrote involves the question of whether or not the narrator is hallucinating her lover. It felt like an opportunity to question what she needs and what this short but intense relationship gave her. In the movie, Jack wins his ticket in a poker game just before the boat sets sail, so there is no record of his existence. When telling her story 85 years later, Rose is not immediately believed that he was real or that it happened. Yes, this love affair was important, but what lasted was her freedom, the way Jack showed Rose that she had agency over her own life, that things could look different, and that it was worth the sacrifice.

Regardless, I would love to host a movie night with snacks and pastries this winter so that you can truly understand. ♥️

MM: It’s a date!

Forgive me, this might be a messy thought still: I’m thinking about the resources that support queer and other dissenting, alternative approaches to living—Virginia Woolf’s 500 guineas and a room of one’s own, meaning the means and space to be who and what you want to be able to make what you need to make. I’ve been reading Diana Souhami’s No Modernism Without Lesbians and have been struck by how she underscores the ways notable queer women at the end of the 19th and first quarter of the 20th centuries inherited wealth from their fathers and invested it into queer community, art, and writing from their peers, and in facilitating ways of being that went against dominant norms. Meanwhile, in Saidiya Hartman’s Wayward Lives, Beautiful Experiments, she analyzes and fabulates toward near total elisions of queer femme and trans masc people of color in modern history, with the rate of invisibility proportionate to a lack of economic means. Class, poverty, systemic racism, and criminalization mark the possibilities of supportive queer communities and the historical record of them quite differently, dependent on circumstances. Hartman’s indispensable work shows that the capacities to love and fuck and thrive persist despite the most challenging of conditions, but given the upstairs/downstairs class divides in Titanic and adjacent narratives, the tensions and subordinations within the LGBTQIA+, and the ongoing erasures of women desiring women, or even women desiring at all, I wondered if this zone of thinking figures into your inquiries.

KR: I love hearing this report back from Diana Souhami because the answer to all my inquiries is always that the lesbians are holding it down! During the run of Pleasure Cruise, I had some peers point out the stark differences of priorities within the queer community, and how proximity to privilege and power changes one’s relationship to others and to the ways in which we seek pleasure. I’m interested in the connections you’re drawing to an upstairs/downstairs dynamic in the Titanic that feels translatable to the striations of queer personhood. Those striations, or maybe more clearly letters within the LGBTQIA* alphabet, tend to react differently to power and seemingly relate via their social status within our larger society more than their economic one. Much more to think about here.

__________________________________________________


Readers can encounter more of Kitty Rauth’s work and goings on at kittyrauth.com and on Instagram @_sugarm0mmy_.


Introducing The Old Tai and Beijing Shichahai

Red Bean by Tianjiao Wang. Film still. Image courtesy of the artist.

By Tina Wang and Tianjiao Wang

The Old Tai and Beijing Shichahai (老太和北京什刹海) is an artist duo formed by Tina Wang and Tianjiao Wang. They are interested in important yet often overlooked qualities in the art world, such as the courage to be generous to others and not feel taken advantage of, the question of how to sustain one’s practice within a nourishing environment, and how to make art in a healthy way. They are willing to invest deeply in these concerns. Their work seeks to resist oppression in contemporary life and to foster better expression, storytelling, and sharing. “The Old Tai” comes from Tina’s long-standing artist name, 太太, modified with an adjective for a desire for the wisdom that comes from becoming older, while Beijing Shichahai refers to Tianjiao’s desire to root her identity in her hometown of Beijing.

Tianjiao Wang is interested in acknowledging the presence of things. Through photographing and filming, she anticipates drawing others closer, while simultaneously keeping them perpetually within the realm of the other—without crossing boundaries, without encroachment, without fusion.

TAITAI +/-/x/÷Tina makes perverse dioramas with organic materials in all states of their solidity to emphasize the malleability, humor, and fragility of the human condition. Her ecosystem of movement research for performance that leads to object making (film, photo, and ceramics), which is fed back into the installations, guides her practice.

Tina Wang: Why have you recently become interested in performance?

Tianjiao Wang: It might be because the medium of performance shares many connections and similarities with the filmmaking I’m doing—they both invite the audience, as a collective, to share a period of time together, one that is durational and demands attention. So, the reason I’m inviting you to work with me on this performance is to use the act of doing to gain a more panoramic understanding of a certain unfolding. But I especially want to collaborate with you because I’m reminded of scenes with two female leads in film and television—most directly, Bergman’s Persona (1966)—and the energy that arises between two women. I believe performance, as a medium more immediate than film, offers us a lot of space to explore. I’m curious about something you mentioned before—you described my film as having a certain atmospheric quality in relation to space. You said that’s something you’ve been pursuing in your own practice recently; you also mentioned that it feels like our practices are somehow crossing paths. Can you elaborate on that? What about my work that made you feel this resonance?

Tina: Mhmm! Yes, your videos bring forth this installation quality that I am pursuing in my work with foam and paraffin wax. Maybe this is the perfect time for this collaboration of exchanges in media. Even though perhaps you would not call your work installation, the work that you screened at Roman Susan where viewers sit with the imagery of a landscape that is both familiar and unfamiliar to us feels like one. It is familiar because I have seen trees and been on hikes. But it is unfamiliar because I have not been explicitly to that exact scene you have. The slow speed at which the video moves gives me agency as a viewer, and space and time to take it in and feel.

Tianjiao: In the film Fall , I believe I continued an interest of mine—the idea that the act of viewing can be one of absorption. This state of absorption can act like a catalyst: you might find yourself in resonance with the protagonist, or with the ladybug in their hand, a falling leaf, or the sunset over the Indiana Dunes…The interplay between text and image, and the subtle discrepancy between information and affect, have always been my sources of inspiration. But in Fall, what interests me is the intertextuality between human presence and landscape, or perhaps the refusal to let the human figure be the sole protagonist. The landscape, too, can take a leading role, occupying space with authority, allowing a reciprocal energy to move through the film. From another perspective, I feel that the presence of the characters I’m interested in also becomes fluid in this film. I’m still exploring this aspect, something like the energy connected to a film, and the kind of capacity or state a person brings home with them after watching it.

Fall 塌 by Tianjiao Wang. Film still. Image courtesy of the artist.

Tina: I am with you, making work that can create a world in which people can see and feel themselves in, but is it unfamiliar enough to push their total understanding? Against the strict functions and associations that people, places, and things have in our lives? But I also wonder about my own biases. Perhaps I am still stuck in a specific binary framework of value placement- familiar/unfamiliar, slow/fast, boring/interesting. I make decisions to try to remain in an “in-between” state, but still feel caught in it. What is moderation? There’s a certain pressure of not wanting to be too boring or too interesting. If it is too boring or interesting, it does not allow that kind of absorption you are talking about. In that way, I sense a tremendous, perhaps misguided, sense of responsibility.

Having worked as a performer for others for more than a decade now, I have been in many types of processes. Even if the process of a performance is somatic-based and slower, inevitably, there is a quickening and hardening against the gaze of the viewer. Maybe there is a fear of being boring. Like you said, I am sharing time with my viewers, and I want to be generous. I hope for absorption also, not just what I am doing, but a weaving together of one’s attention and associations of what is happening. Perhaps it’s a shared curiosity? Compared to me, I sense you have less pressure in showing your video works. I feel like I can take the time I need and project myself into them.

Photo by McCall McClellan for TAITAI   +/-/x/÷Tina’s work, Where are the concubines?

Even though I made the “transition” from dancer to performer then visual artist, using the body is still such an important start to my process. I touch my face on a wooden floor and feel support. I sink into a soft pillow and feel my neck ache. And I see myself wanting to recreate a variety of associations of “comforts” for an audience member in an art setting. Do you feel that way when making? Or do you have certain goals/ideal states for your viewers?

Tianjiao: In past screening experiences, I’ve sometimes felt an unprecedented level of nervousness or pressure when showing my film to just one individual. That feeling probably stems from being too self-aware—either because I know exactly what I’m doing in a particular film, or, on the contrary, because I’m acutely aware of my own uncertainty about something. I get anxious about how they might respond. But in a conventional cinema setting, surrounded by complete darkness, it’s different. Maybe the darkness helps—I’m half joking, but maybe it really does. I don’t know who’s sitting in the audience, but I’m also sitting among them. I become part of the audience. I feel comfortable. In those moments, I’m no longer the maker. I especially felt that way with red bean. I was able to simply enjoy watching it.

When I first read Nathaniel Dorsky’s description of how watching a certain film can make one feel healthy, it immediately resonated with me, because that’s exactly how I’ve felt after seeing the work of many contemporary filmmakers I adore. It’s not necessarily a sense of healthy because the film is hopeful, uplifting, or even gentle, but because the combination of medium, technique, and message comes together in a way that makes one feel whole or well.

I was quite surprised that you used the word “comforts”, because I might have thought of safety instead. I can see how your work constantly engages with familiar things in unfamiliar ways, but for me, unfamiliarity doesn’t necessarily bring comfort. I’m not sure if what you’re referring to is more accurately described as emotional comfort. Or perhaps it’s the second half of the sentence—“in an art setting”—that you were emphasizing?

Red Bean by Tianjiao Wang. Film still. Image courtesy of the artist.

Tina: Healthy! I had never thought of that, but perhaps that is what I am thinking of too. Contemporary society asks us to fragment and compartmentalize so much of ourselves, our senses, desires, goals, and the ability to be generous. Seeing a work that can let a person feel absorption (as you mentioned before) is perhaps what I mean by comfort. I don’t expect my audience members to feel comfortable seeing my work. Most of the time, as you have alluded to, there is a feeling of unease and lack of safety.

In my performances, I see myself creating these microcosms of the insane things we do to try to make our lives feel meaningful in contemporary society. I put excess and mess on display because to me, that is the calibration, an in-between state in trying to work through an idea to a final product. We are often asked to either justify the end because of the means or the means for the ends. Perhaps like all the attempts of other artists to queer categories and binaries, I want to queer our definitions of finish, polish, success, finality, and achievement. Things are messy and ambiguous but always visceral in my work because that is something we don’t see much or think of as positive or even productive in the world.

That being said, I also do believe in the need to not just do what gratifies one’s senses. I think that is what is pushing me to make work beyond performance. I have such pleasure in non-verbally showing the gamut of emotions I feel when I encounter something hard (tile) versus something soft (melted wax) as I world-build these performative dioramas. But how do I keep inviting different types of audiences in? How do I also restrain myself in the work to create more contemplative experiences?

The body is not always moving but is always being put on display, asking to be judged in some way. But can its complicated and contradictory “moves” be translatable into an art “object” and retain its mobility? I think and wonder about stillness a lot. How do you make decisions about stillness and motion as you go into the editing suite? Do you find yourself guided by intuition for the most part? Are there moments that you didn’t but felt happy about the outcome?

Photo by Michelle Reid for TAITAI   +/-/x/÷Tina’s work Where are the concubines?

Tianjiao: Sometimes the process feels like hunting—there’s an element of luck involved. But when the camera captures a certain moment, I immediately know I’ll use that shot. That said, there are also times when I get strong footage, but end up letting it go because it doesn’t fit into the flow of the film.

Fall was the first film where I entered the editing suites without having gathered all the footage I had originally imagined. That decision was also intuitive—I just knew that what I had shot so far wasn’t enough to fully form a film. I started editing partly because there was an opportunity for the Roman Susan screening test, and I wanted to try out the experience of both working on and showing a work-in-progress. But that process gave me new insight into the material. It was also in the editing suite that I realized the landscape had gradually started to stand out more than the main character.

I appreciate what you said about “not just doing what gratifies one’s senses.” When I first encountered those durational structuralist films, they felt like a direct counter to conventional viewing rhythms—many of them, to me, were about endurance and reshaping the viewer’s patience. Lately, I’ve been exploring whether a durational film could slow down someone’s metabolism, rather than being long for the sake of being long.

This ties into my thoughts on stillness and motion—not just in terms of visuals, but also conceptually and technically. It’s about how these elements work together to create a particular viewing experience, something that ultimately serves the audience.

Tina: I am now thinking about a recent rejection email from a reputable foundation that compiled the jury’s notes with the help of AI, and a comment that stood out was this: “The intention is clear, but the community impact could be described more directly.” Here we are talking about internal intentions and desires, but of course, there is so much hope for external understanding. I know all the cliches about not depending on one comment or feedback from one organization, but outside of graduate school or group critique settings, how does one know or gain data points to measure that translation from intention to reaction? And how does one trust the feedback of the viewer? I am grateful to you for trusting me and look forward to making this performance with you.

Tianjiao Wang and Tina Wang.

Performance proposal: Our desire to collaborate comes from Tianjiao’s curiosity: can an artist who has always performed independently find a kind of equilibrium when working with someone else, remaining true to themselves while allowing another person to coexist through forms of collaboration, support, or simply presence? Our tentative title centers around the idea of undomestication. Tina has developed a body of work called ‘How to domesticate Tina’ that takes the form of a video and live performances.

Tianjiao will use choreographed poses by Tina to make her body resemble unstable, unreliable pieces of furniture for Tina to interact with. These interactions can be physical or verbal. But because each of my poses can only be held for a limited time before collapsing, Tina will have to find the next “piece of furniture” to engage with.

Since Tina has historically performed non-verbally, her act of domestication will be to verbalize poems of fitting in as she tries to receive support from Tianjiao’s untrained body. The collaboration pushes up against the line between suffocation and support in questioning how to still find belonging as both parties fail at their tasks together.

I’ll Pick the Cyborg: Connective Thread at Ivory Gate Gallery

Connective Thread installation shot. (L to R) Work by: Lauren Seider, Adrianne Rubenstein, and Sam Jaffe. Photo by Jonas Muller-Ahlheim.

By Samuel Schwindt

Florals dance with armor; aggressive suturing marries fossilized detritus; foreboding becomes forewarning.

The idealized fractured is the idealized subverted — according to Ivory Gate Gallery’s group exhibition Connective Thread (curated by Michelle Alexander). Slipping down concrete steps in the affluent Chicago Gold Coast neighborhood, there’s a lurking, foreboding glamor in the works of Michelle Grabner, Sam Jaffe, Lauren Seiden, Michelle Alexander, Adrianne Rubenstein, and Carmen Neely.

The exhibition statement enshrines the showing as “both the intimate and universal aspects of womanhood.” The nestled below street-level gallery harbors quasi-textiles, papers, and other ephemeral-made-permanent gestures. The works propose a retribution: a re-framing without the frame. The frame, being the body, is absent; and the absences in the show can, and will, inform a liberation.

On the left, a scrunched construction is vaguely body-adjacent, an unstable figure. The steel-y outside hides an interior of blackened, shiny, and cratered skin. Lauren Seiden’s Ultimate Shield (no. 6) is an in-flux armor. The skin is the frame, is the architecture, is the body – a futuristic blending of form, envisioning where the melting of material personas and roles resolutely solidifies into self-defense, allegorically connecting to extraneous forces contorting bodies in space.

Sam Jaffe. I’ll Pick You, 2022. Mixed media on wood. 7 x 22 x 5.5 in. Photo by Jonas Muller-Ahlheim.

In the middle, Sam Jaffe’s I’ll Pick You is an algae outgrowth, a fossilized specimen of flowers in delicate pastels. It evokes a species of sneaky flora; perhaps one that has evasive or self-protective maneuvers. In a manner similar to Maggie Nelson’s Bluets, I don’t want to state this is beautiful. When writing investigations (autobiographical, scientific, poetic) about the color blue, Nelson writes beautifying color choices are, in fact, “murderous to beauty.” Her investigation carries on with the societal cliché’s of women feeling “blue” and the pathologizing that follows. The colors Jaffe’s weaponizes remind me of this line: “If a color could deliver hope, does it follow it could also bring despair?” [1]

Michelle Alexander. The Mother, The Sister, The Pressure. Connective Thread Installation Shot. Photo by Jonas Muller-Ahlheim.

In the back, Michelle Alexander’s runaway bride is caught by a typical fashion display rack. It’s in a confused state (positively) of becoming—ready to be pulled for a fitting, yet also an archaic object. The staples-as-stitching propose an aggressive, immediate fix. Maybe the gown ripped, and before walking down the aisle, an assistant stapled skin. There’s a profound absence in the piece: an absence of an experience that happened long ago or maybe won’t happen at all. On a site visit, the artist told me the dress reflects pressures—familial, social—to get married, and the fears she may never embark on that traditional female rite of passage.

Michelle Grabner. Untitled, 2024–2025. Glazed porcelain and oil paint. Photo by Jonas Muller-Ahlheim.

In the back, Michelle Grabner has a knack for coaxing the ordinary into the glinting sacrosanct. The sculptures on the floor at the back are a surprise house-party guest; one who maybe wasn’t invited but lovingly welcomed upon arrival. A doorstop is a disruption next to the immortalized ceramic cleaning supplies; a measure to keep a conversation open, like when one is departing a house and has their foot slightly in the door (but their body is angled out). There’s a romance towards the labor history; a beauty seeking demystification in scrubbing the final soap suds from the previously murky sink.

To the side, Carmen Neely’s Remember is a ripped diary entry, petrified in its moment of creation but excavated for the present.  The lithograph is brainstorming sketches tracing existential dread. The text ranges from half-cursive scriptures such as “Your work will survive this” and “You will survive this.” The final statement on the right leaflet-made-lithograph is a ligature. It echoes reminisces in the show on the cruelty of stagnation: “The heaviest borders are clenched tightly…. Anticipating release by your own muscles.”

Carmen Neely. Remember, 2023. Lithograph on paper. 12.5 x 14.75 in (framed). Photo by Jonas Muller-Ahlheim.

Threaded together (sorry, I know) are manifestations of utopia: I can’t help but think of automaton constructs, post-human musings, or retrospections on a past that unfurls into a questionable future. The group exhibition becomes a reckoning in this way, resonating with Donna Haraway’s A Cyborg Manifesto (1985). The artworks operate as fictions blended with social reality, where science fiction tangles with societal oppression. Haraway wrote that the women’s movements of the late 20th century were key in unearthing a collective consciousness of resistance within tight seams, and the cyborg metaphor liberates through “imaginative apprehension, of oppression, and so of possibility.”[2] The real and the socially constructed become an “optical illusion,” and the cyborg embodies an “intimacy with a power” not born from the history of sexuality (cue Foucault, of course). In this way, the exhibition draws on material manipulations rooted in traditional craft—sewing, quasi-ceramics, printmaking—to conjure an uncanny, future female body basking in dangerous glamor.

Connective Thread lurches towards luxury, rooted in a morose meditation. While there are harbingers of despair contained in the gallery (a runaway bride, for example), they showcase a solace in standing resolutely. It’s almost ritual, almost kink: a slow summoning that borders on spellcasting. It purports to be a fix of the ways women are viewed in an all-consuming patriarchy. But it becomes a stitched revenge salute in the end; an acknowledgement and a wink, like when you rough scrub a coarse edge to get a glinting smoothness. Smoothing the rough edge doesn’t provide it autonomy; perhaps accentuating the seam does.

Check out the closing reception of Connective Thread on Friday, June 6th, 5:00 – 8:00 PM at Ivory Gate Gallery (Chicago, IL). You can also view the exhibition by appointment on June 7th and 8th.


[1] Nelson, Maggie. Bluets. Seattle: Wave Books, 2009. P. 12.

[2] Haraway, Donna. A Cyborg Manifesto: Science, Technology, and Socialist Feminism in the Late 20th Century. Minneapolis: University of Minnesota Press, 2016. P. 6.

The Weeds Always Come Back: An Interview with Laleh Motlagh

Laleh Motlagh. Installation image at Chicago Art Department, Image courtesy of the artist

By Samuel Schwindt

I clichély joke every Chicago “fools spring” that the perpetually pending warmth makes me a houseplant desperate for a little sunlight (to restore my sanity). I tossed this joke to Laleh Motlagh for the first time meeting her, unbeknownst to her prolific plant practice. Her solo exhibition at Chicago Art Department, Cultivating Dispersal, curated by Cecilia González Godino, arrived quickly after our first encounter.

The histories Motlagh contours are intricate and delicate. In her searching and longing for a plummeted past, her artworks become counter-monuments: antithetical structures of subversion, unpredictably rooted in her body and flora-heirlooms (house plants and weeds). I wanted to know from Motlagh, herself: how do the tendrils of our consciousnesses, collective or personal, invade place, time, and objects? And how do our memories of memories supplant?

Laleh Motlagh. Still image of video performance The Loss, courtesy of the artist.

In a homecoming to a mutated space, Untitled, Motlagh precariously filmed herself where her family home in Iran once stood (it was demolished by developers). In the sequel piece The Loss across the room, she wears the same all-white garment and scarf, now kneeling in her Chicago backyard. The scarf plays a major role: she says it ties back to the patriarchal society she grew up in, filtered through the layered oppressions against women in Iran. The video pair acts as a feedback loop.

Laleh Motlagh. Still image of video performance Untitled, courtesy of the artist.

Samuel Schwindt: What history could be there still if the house was plundered for development? What remains?

Laleh Motlagh: This house was where I was born and raised. That same year that my parents moved there, and I was born there, my father had planted three trees in front of the house. When I went back in December of 2024, I went and found the neighborhood, found the house, and one of the trees was still there, right? But the house isn’t.

It’s all that memory, that time that’s embedded in that tree, standing up.  I decided to stand in the video. The tree also has this form of standing.

This was very controversial because there are so many political issues in Iran now. There’s so much surveillance, especially regarding women. People are afraid of cameras.

Even [while I was] shooting this, the neighbor came out and started giving me a really hard time.

SS: I’m thinking a lot about the word “embodiment” with your work. The tree is still absorbing all the oxygen, the environmental factors of the surroundings as it grows and changes. You did that with your past in place and self, politically with Iran and inhabiting that history within your body.

LM: It’s migration. There’s always the question of where home is, right? And I feel like these videos really create this dialogue back and forth. And continue to wrestle with this idea of there it is. Is it there? Is it somewhere between?

Laleh Motlagh. Installation image of Untitled sculptures, Image courtesy of the artist

Contained in wood-plank frames and dangling from the ceiling, plant detritus swirls and shrugs. They become a simulacrum of plant boxes. The debris is from her backyard, and rather than discarding, she replaces weeding with harvesting and harnessing.

SS: Tell more about how you think conceptually about framing and its interaction with the plants?

LM:  It’s an ephemeral structure, but the frame is always going to be there. I don’t modify. I don’t transform, I don’t change it in any form or any shape. It stays as is, and then I bring it to the studio, I hang it — it dries.

And then when I install it, pieces fall off. It’s very much like a letting go process, right?  Even though structures come in, like with the house being demolished and rebuilt.

SS: Yes. Even if you pull up all the weeds in your backyard, they do always come back. That root structure is still there. While this is a fleeting gesture, it doesn’t have pessimism in it. These will come back in that space. Just as you returned to this space (gesturing to the video of Motlagh in Iran), it becomes a reminder of time again.

LM: And resilient. I think of this with women in Iran. How resistant and resilient they are, and how they continue to tackle and resist against oppression. They don’t get stopped.

There isn’t a stopgap. It’s like there’s a continuous pushing. In the fall of 2022, the Woman Life Freedom Movement, nationwide protests took place in Iran, which was against women’s compulsory hijabs. It still continues.

Even though with all the resistance, with all the oppressions, with all the surveillance and arrests, and execution of women in Iran or the Middle East, they really are incredibly resilient. And I sometimes find it hard to have that sort of resilience here.

A lot of times, I look at these entanglements, how they are structured, and how they hold themselves. And how they have this life cycle. That they die out and come back out, die out, and come back out every year after year. It just reminds me very much of that movement.

Laleh Motlagh. Quiet Chaos (lines), image courtesy of the artist.
Laleh Motlagh. Individual drawing in series Spring 2022 – Fall 2024, image courtesy of the artist.

In spring 2022, as the war in Eastern Europe began and as the world felt like it was unraveling, Motlagh turned to her potted plants in her house and studio. She drew them as a quiet form of connection, tracing their contained, melancholy presence. In the fall of 2024, she returned to the same drawings, layering gray over black.

In the back corner is Quiet Chaos (lines),  a cartographic tracing on paper is then secured sacredly in a frame. The drawing depicts two jade plants (one brought by her father when he immigrated, the other gifted to her years later in Chicago).

LM:  Again, it’s that displacement, that migration. Being in one pot and figuring out ways of a home, of survival. Can these two cultures, my two cultures, reside next to one another? What does that space feel like for me?

SS: It’s a gesture of archiving, too. But the drawings hammer in that when we remember things, we don’t remember the actual event. We have the memory of the memory of it. And there are constantly disguising layers.

But you’re not upset with that either. You’re finding beauty in that process and processing it.

LM: It’s very internal, but I am processing it.

Motlagh and I took a brief break from recording and meandered to a coffee shop down the street. While waiting for our order, she showed me an image of her as a child in Iran, beside a seemingly giant planter box in her living room, larger than her. The distortion in perspective stuck with me, from the small to the large: how things live in people’s minds, then the actual object or experience. I began recording again when we returned to Chicago Art Department.

SS: On our walk, you mentioned that your practice with plants is the personal made into the global.

LM:  They go across cultures, religions, and time, right? And again, it’s that kind of leveling of the playing field that they create for us and let us be in there. As I was saying earlier, plants teach us about ourselves if we have the patience to observe and learn from them, and not be so human-centric, and see other beings in our surroundings.

You can see more of Laleh Motlagh’s work on her website or Instagram.